Instead of commenting about libraries in general-- we can all agree about how important they are (my education came not from schools but from libraries), I want to throw in a remark about libraries here in Philly. It's distressing to see scarce funds go toward expanding the temple of gentrification on the parkway-- massive amounts of money budgeted for that-- while the branch libraries, so much closer to the public, are the first to be closed, hours and services cut, etc., at crunch time. Who uses the libraries (even the main branch)? Is it not folks from the lower segments of society? Oh, we see hordes of well-dressed gentry come in for author readings (bland establishment writers who know only how to be boring) at the main branch-- but it's the only time you'll see these folks there. The contrast between the library's actual patrons, and such well-heeled audiences, is striking. I hit many of the branches, to use the internet (as now) and have a good sense of how important they are to community locals. Those kids flipping through magazines and books are literature's future. If even one of them is stimulated, introduced to the excitement and wonder of books, the branch's existence is worth it. Just my two cents. Thanks.
Well, King, as someone who has very fond memories of days spent in the Holmesburg Branch of the Free Library, I am sympathetic to much that you say - though as one who has participated in the author events at the Main Branch, I have to say that those I have attended have been very worthwhile. I think one can have both the author events and effective branches. I think you have to have both, in fact.
Folks, perhaps you weren't aware that all of the branches were refurbished during the Big Change campaign and that the Central Library was saved for last. Perhaps you're also unaware that the library has a nationally recognized Teen Author Series (now in its fourth year) that brings thousands of Philadelphia teens together with world class authors throughout the branch system--authors like Alice Walker, Tim O'Brien, Nikki Giovanni et al. As to King's benighted comments about the "hordes of well-dressed gentry" attending the author readings by "bland establishment writers who know only how to be boring," I can only think that he missed the boat on some terrific events with the likes of Cindy Sheehan, Amy Goodman, Steve Wozniak, Katha Pollitt, Michael Eric Dyson, Amy Sedaris, David Rees, Monte Irvin, Dave Lindorff, Alison Bechdel, Barack Obama and the list goes on. We have folks of every color, class, creed and gender attending our events. Next time you may want to do your homework before you add your two cents.
But I have seen the events there. Most-- the Thursday evening ones esp, are 95% white and 99% gentry. They reek of NPR-- which stimulates some people, I guess. I guess none of you have seen a real underground event. :) My main point anyway has to do with the huge expansion planned. What's that cost?? (Many of the branches btw are fairly decrepit. only recently was some semblance of decent hours, such as Saturdays, restored. Again, building of the Temple will go on and you can be sure at next budget crunch branch hours will be cutback to a miniscule of hours. Like at the South Philly branch on 7th, for which the last cutback was crippling.) Yes, we need both. Will we get it? Has the massive expansion been fully justified, given the enoprmous expense?? If you want a good example of this kind of strategy, visit Detroit, my home town, where everything-- EVERYTHING-- bus service, schools, streetlights-- was sacrificed to build two huge sports arenas which were supposed to resurrect the city but instead have become only playthings for one class of people; one on display this week in fact with the World Series. Thanks.
nwp.s. This isn't really the time and place for this-- but I can't resist: Mr. Kahan, aren't you the individual who threatened to ban me from the central library for daring to ask a few questions of a noted author at one of your events a few years ago? (Said questions added some life to what was a rather staid affair, by my lights.) I ask that people who dominate literature in this country adopt the perspective of those who view things from the outside. Why is literature dominated by big conglomerates in New York? Why do the most hyped authors come from elite schools? Is this at all democratic? Hasn't the history of literature shown that writing is one venue immune from schooling? That the very best writers were in fact self-educated? (From Tolstoy to Stephen Crane to Hemingway to Jack Kerouac to Jack London.) Why do even the voices on the so-called "Left" come from the upper strata of this country? (The oft-seen Katrina vanden Heuvel of the Nation to name one; a billionairess with a huge investment portfolio.) When does the bulk of the populace get to speak for themselves? Ever? There recently was a "215" event at your venue-- hyping mediocre monopoly-backed authors based in NYC like John Hodgman. There are some very good Philly writers and poets around who could use the attention. Care to book one of them-- such as long-time Philly poet Frank Walsh? I'll be posting about Walsh on my blog-- examining his work and arguing with specific examples that there's no better poet alive in America now. Walsh is a great spoken word performer to boot. Not just adequate. Not just good. Among the best around. I say that as someone who's not a bad public performer himself, who's attended and participated in hundreds of open mics through the years. Walsh is one guy who can bring life back into the lit scene-- as he puts life back into poetry. Alas, he has few credentials or credits-- just a handyman fixing buildings in west Philly, scribbling his art in spare moments. Unbacked by any huge publicity departments-- only by the literary renegades in the Underground Literary Alliance. (If you want an example of an excellent non-ULA Philly writer who gets no attention, I'll give you the name Lawrence Richette. He has nothing whatsoever in common with ULAers-- but does happen to be a very good writer. Read his novel "The Secret Family" sometime; or another excellent novel he wrote about the MOVE fiasco; one of the most relevant things written in this town in recent years. I'll invite you to read and book him. His crime is publishing through Xlibris. Surely you exist as more than an outlet for the big book companies?) Thanks for letting me rant. . . .
Actually, King's point is really exactly Tim Coates' point (author and campaigner of the Good Libraries Blog post linked to by Frank). In the UK, less and less money is being spent on books. More and more is being spent, for example, on bespoke library buildings (instead of saving it by using same plans, as schools do). In London, for example, each borough has its own system and you can't borrow from one library in a different borough without a load of new bureacracy. This is all part of Tim's campaign, to use the internet to make economies of scale in the UK library system so we can stop closing down libraries and buy books to stock them with, instead of the numerous grand and silly intiatives that he reports on his blog. Tim Coates knows what he is talking about, he used to be MD of Waterstones, and should be Prime Minister of Britain after Tony B chooses to retire.
To address some of your points: yes, i'm the guy who said he was going to throw you out and that was becuase you heckled one of our authors. If you can't have a civil exchange with the authors we don't want you wasting their time or the time of the audience who have little interest in your comments.... Now, I'm also diistressed about the consolidation of publishing power in the hands of a limited number of corporations, but those corporations also have houses with editors whose discriminating tastes I trust far more than the vanity presses who print anything that comes over the transom. Ann Godoff at Penguin Press, Gary Fisketjon at Knopf and Erol McDonald at Pantheon, just to name a few, know fine writing when they see it. When Xlibris et al produce writers of the caliber that the aforementioned houses publish--and people want to see, hear, meet and read those authors--we'll probably host them. With regard to Frank Walsh, if you think he deserves a reading, have him send one of his books to the the attention of the Literature Department of the Free Library of Philadelphia, 1901 Vine St. Philadelphia, PA 19103. They run our local poetry series entitled Monday Poets. Frank may fit right in. If they don't go for a Frank Walsh night, try one of the many open mic nights in town, or Robbins or Kelly Writers House or Mollys--we're not the only game in town. As to Hodgman, he's been coming to the library for the past 5 years for the 215 Festival, long before Pearson LLC decided to publish his book. The same is true for David Rees who had published his Get Your War On cartoons on his web site. (Much like the site you have on eblogger, which is hosted by that little democratically run anti-establishment startup we know and love as Google, a.k.a THE MAN or gentry as it were.) And speaking of the man, bring your clicker on Thursday night to the William Julius Wilson event so you can check your demographics (95% white, 99% gentry) and count the number of non-white folks and non-gentry in attendance, but bring $12.00 because it is a ticketed event, unless you're a student, then you pay $6.00. (NB: Without the 30 ticketed events we do each year we wouldn't be able to bring you the other 100 bland establishment writers for free.) And while you're there you may want to thank those gentry that do show up because they (and a good number of foundations) will be paying for the lions share of the new library, where you'll be able to use the internet for free. For additonal info about the library system, who we serve and the projected costs of the new building, call our communications department at 215-567-7710 and they'll be happy to send you an annual report. And by the way, if you can't tell, I think it's absurd to compare an institution of free education for all to a sports complex that charges outrageous sums for entertainment.
I used the Detroit sports complexes as an example of a tops-down approach to saving a city. It doesn't work. Nice that the gentry are paying for the extension (you haven't told us the cost) but will branch hours be extended at the same time? Maybe something can be done about the Chinatown branch on 7th near Market, which I frequented for a while earlier in the year. Many days it was closed because of no heat in the building-- then was shut down for over a month this summer. Meaning many local community people weren't served. Yes, I use the computers at the libraries (am on one now). I'm also a taxpayer. Re heckling. As you know, I didn't heckle the person-- merely started a debate with him during the designated question period; asking him about his abuse of this country's grants process, and how it relates to literature. That's all. You were there-- you know this. Your threat came outside, in the lobby, as I and a couple I attended the event with were leaving the library! (They were astounded by your behavior and your words: "I know you; I know all about you.") Re Richette. You can't really judge his work unless you read it, Xlibris or not. I'll have him send a copy of one of his novels to you c/o the central library-- and I will follow-up on it. (He's a far, far better writer than Mr. Hodgman, who represents everything wrong with literature now. Oh yes, he's very trendy and a member of the in-crowd, as represented by the yearly invasion of trendoids from NYC known as the 215 festival.) Re the book monsters. Yes, I'm sure they have a few good people working for them-- by your standards. (But then, is Ann Godoff speaking out about the takeover of CLMP by big money-- or cooperating with this?) GM and Ford always had some good people working for them, including during their period of total dominance-- but at the same time represented virtual monopoly of the market, shutting out new ideas. Their stagnancy then is more visible now. The American literary world today is stagnant, and can't see it. Re Mr. William Wilson. (Wasn't that a Poe story?) Sorry, I work most evenings. I'd guess he's another bourgeois author-- whatever his color-- and that his audience will be mostly bourgeois, whatever their color. Re Mr. Walsh. Golly, I've never heard of Robin's! What a nice quaint little venue! Thanks much! Actually, Walsh has read at Robin's, at Molly's (which fits all of eight people) and was featured a couple years ago at one of the Monday Poets series. Too bad you weren't in attendance-- he and those of us who read at the open mic period brought much needed energy to the event. (Walsh won a poetry slam at the Kelly Writers House in January of 2004, which included many of Penn's best poetry students. The event was sponsored by one of their lit journals, which promised publication to the winner. They never followed through on it. Walsh's "Reagan's Brain" is a barn burner-- not very genteel; not the kind of thing found in a standard lit journal-- or at the prestige events at the Central Library.)
To Mssrs. Kahan and King -- This is what debate is supposed to be about! You go, guys -- but stay civil, too.
Both of you make good points, btw. But, King, I would have been upset, too, if I'd been in the audience when you were hassling a speaker about the grants he's received. That doesn't have anything to do with what the guy has read, does it? And if he's received grants you don't think he should have, it's partly a name game -- once you've gotten one, you're a known quantity, you're likely to get others. On the other hand, before you've gotten any, the absolute best thing you can be is A MINORITY. So, you see, stuff evens out.
Mr. Kahan, I admire you for doing your job as well as you can. King Wenclas, I admire you for pointing out that America is more class-based than we know and that there's a world beneath the gentrified one whose creative gifts those above barely know. (Well, actually, we know in one form: Rap music. The written words we know less well....)
The violent and sexist "rap" music put out by conglomerates like Sony is a cynical distortion of original hip-hop. Btw, I'm not a "minority"-- so where does that leave me? Why do I ask questions at literary events? It's one way to have a voice in this society. It's why I came to Philadelphia from Detroit-- to be able to confront the heart of the beast. The problem with literature today is its tops-down approach. Believe it or not, newspaper reviewers in cities like Detroit review not local authors-- but writers approved by the "mainstream" based in New York. This problem will become greater-- as the other Wilson, Frank, surely knows, with newspapers around the country laying off their own book reviewers and reprinting reviews from the few reviewers left. Philadelphia is actually lucky in this regard. (I know the Baltimore paper had a good book reviewer who was laid off a couple years ago. Who now does one send books to? Is everything being centralized?) Snobby Mr. Kahan-- note his condescension toward "vanity" authors-- is merely one cog in a huge problem. More noise about literature; more books; more pages; more magazine articles and ad space; comes out of NYC than the entire rest of the nation combined. Who staffs the book publishers and the magazines which decide which authors are promoted? The individuals overwhelmingly are Ivy League grads, representative of less than 1% of the American public while imposing their tastes and standards on what is considered literature. This is how we get a smirky and smarmy John Hodgman. The well-bred and well-trained staffers see literature from their perspective, from no other. Unless one knows how to access those at the top of the pyramid, one has few chances of being meaningfully published. How do unconnected writers combat this? Do we stay in our tiny ghettoes-- hoping for a reading at, gulp!, Molly's? Or do we find alternate ways to get the word out about ourselves and our products? The Underground Literary Alliance is an advocacy group for underground writers. We've made noise and we'll make more of it. We're also slowly putting into place the foundation for a true alternative literature different from the conglomerates. (Note the new book review feature on the ULA's www.literaryrevolution.com site. Anyone care to write some book reviews for us?) p.s. I wish I could make the Gaitskill reading at your venue tonight, Mr. Kahan. Sorry I can't. Ms. G was a subscriber to a newsletter of mine in the 1990's. She actually solicited a review from me in 2000 when she was guest fiction editor at Bookforum. I reviewed J.T. Leroy's first novel. I expressed reservations about the book's stance (I didn't expect "he" was a fraud), as I'd worked in truck compounds and was familiar with "lot lizards." Leroy's narrative rang false-- I assumed he was simply writing what he thought the trendy gentry wanted. The slant of my review was changed-- one example of many over the years which told me that mainstream writers are by and large lot lizards themselves. In the ULA, the writers are in control-- not bureaucrats sitting in offices. Mr. Kahan, care to stage a debate sometime between the ULA and any or all mainstream lit folk? Ii'd be exciting and enlightening.
p.p.s. About grants. Look at the recent "House of Lies" post on my blog. Should the wealthiest people in America-- like the author I questioned-- be receiving tax-sheltered or taxpayer grant money? The problem runs deeper than you know.
Um, if you're going to confront "the heart of the beast," shouldn't you do it in the actual jungle: NYC? Phila. hasn't been the center of the publishing industry for over 100 years (though it was, once).
I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but self-published books are, for the most part, crap. I've seen quite a few of them as a writing instructor, a book reviewer, and an editor of a literary magazine. There are a few good ones, worthy of review, but not many -- it's why most book reviews don't even consider them (Frank W., to his credit, will give them a look).
If your writing is fresh and lively, it doesn't matter where you come from or whether you hold any degrees at all -- editors and publishers are *dying* to see your work. I know. I edited a literary magazine for years and I definitely didn't see enough of it.
As for rap and Sony, you begin to show your prejudices, King. Are you the kind of writer who doesn't want to be a member of any club who would have him? Are people who get big publishing contracts and CD deals the sell-outs? Are only the "little," unknown artists "real"?
King's point about access is valid, though. Simply put, it is easier to get your stuff published if you're an insider, than if you're not. People lining up to see quality unknown authors? Not hardly. The free market argument doesn't really hold up, because it's very hard to connect those editors who are "dying to see your fresh, lively work, no matter where you come from," with the writers. I can name 6 or 7 writers (Jessica Schneider is one of them) who have been unable to find one of those sympathetic editors looking for quality work. I'm sure that they exist; but it's naive to think that the connection process is going to happen easily or automatically, even if all parties work hard at it.
The problem is perhaps the top-down way a lot of this is done. Submit the book to a committee, submit the poem to a magzine, submit the magazine to a publisher. The problem here is that those who already have the tools control the tools. (Well, not so much anymore: the internet and desktop publishing are already revolutionizing access to distribution.) So, I can submit something to a library reading committee till the cows come home, but if my work doesn't meet the tastes of those on the committee, it's never going to get anywhere; now is it? Be realistic: a lot of decisions about access are made on the taste of those who control the access. One of my best friends is a professional librarian: she would belly-laugh at the idea that libraries are apolitical.
I love libraries, I grew up reading in them, and I still enjoy visiting them, even though I have amassed my own home library. One of the things I love doing is research, and I'm good at it. And libraries are great fun to get lost in.
Still, I recall what Karl Shapiro wrote in 1960:
"What modern criticism does not take into account, respecting the audience, is that there is not one audience but innumerable audiences. It seems painfully obvious to point out—but there is a difference between the Punch and Judy audience and the opera audience. All appreciation, however, rises from the bottom and does not descend from the top. The sickness of modern poetry is the sickness of isolation from any living audience. There is no healthy literature that does not grow out of naive, folk, and 'primitive' art. It is notable that every art in the twentieth century except poetry has drawn richly from jazz, the movies, advertising, the comic strip, commercial design, and even radio and TV. Poetry is somehow deprived of its contact with contemporary art on the popular and even commercial levels. . . ."
So, how does relate to libraries? Perhaps mostly in the way we choose to let libraries be used, and who we let in to use them. If any public institution should NOT be a top-down institution, it seems to me that is the library.
But, Art, as for publication: Everyone starts somewhere. Every published writer I know, including myself, began as a complete unknown and amassed reams of rejections before finally landing something, somewhere.
As an editor, I published several Phila. writers who were unknown until then -- and then they got Pew Fellowships, Leeway Grants, and PA Council of the Arts awards. Good writing rises to the top and, believe me, it stands out. The majority of the mss. editors receive (excepting the major mags whose eds. only really look at agented fiction)is mediocre at best.
I think people whose writing isn't quite good enough are the ones most likely to decry the "top down" aspect of publishing. They're certain their stuff would get published if only they had connections in that world. But, you know what? All you need is the talent -- talent is truly rare and that's all there is to it. Silver lining: perseverance and relentless practice can make up for the lack, but it takes time.
I love libraries and I would expect the main branch of the Free Library to do things the neighborhood branches don't do: Like bring in major writers.
Well, Susan, I suggest you read my recent two-part essay about CLMP in the "Monday Report" archives at the www.literaryrevolution.com site and see who the publishing world wants: conformists with money. My opinion: what you call writing that's "good enough" is writing which sounds like everything else. I have a post upcoming on my blog examining the requests and standards of literary agents-- their own words-- stating what they want. I intend to document that their main criterion is obedience-- writing to conformist standards. Manuscripts with misspellings are immediately thrown out. Makes sense, doesn't it? But how many geniuses are thrown out with the rest? (Scott Fitzgerald and William Shakespeare were both notorious misspellers.) Those who follow all the rules, who jump through all the hoops, might be the most ambitious but might also at the same time be the most conformist. You're getting a lot of "A" students but not the kid sleeping at the back of the class because he was on the streets all night because his parents were mean drunks; the kid not John Hodgman eagerly raising his hand in the first row, but one who has a compelling story to tell. My own experience when I started writing was that the manuscripts I sent out wren't even read. I did the trick of including a slip of paper between the pages saying, "destroy this note if you get this far." I moved the slip closer and closer to the front. Always it was present. I suspect most lit journals and maybe most publishing houses go no further than the name on the return address. I published several essays in lit journals in the 1990s-- including two long ones in a prestigious journal (the first of the two the best thing I've ever written, even though a third of it was cut-out; I'd even claim it's one of the strongest essays published anywhere in this country in the last twenty years). Everything I wrote was solicited, based on my notoriety through my newsletter. Unsolicited manuscripts are for suckers. Most published writers know this. For the second of the two essays-- about minor league baseball-- I kept phoning the editor about my expenses. he was never in his office. When finally I reached him, I asked when he found time to read his stacks of submissions. He laughed about my question. Re vanity presses. No doubt most of the books published are junk-- as most of the books published by the mainstream, the literary stuff anyway, is well-crafted junk. They have craft-- little else. Lawrence Richette doesn't fit this category. I suggest you read one of his books before judging. Re rap and Sony. My personal opinion is that gangsta rap is helping to destroy the black community. I did some substitute teaching in this town a year ago or so. I could see the younger children learning the attitudes and poses; the language and stance, not fully developed as in the older students. (I wrote about this on my blog-- June or July '05, I think, in my semi-fictional "Zytron" posts. Check them out.)
But this is where it goes horribly wrong, isn't it? Bring in the top writers, and the lower (?) writers sink down to the tip of the snake's tail. When are people going to realise that our publishing industry is being run by celeb autobiographies etc, the money spinners who are pushing out those excellent writers and forcing them to look at (God forbid Susan!) vanity publishing, POD or the smaller more intimate publishers who can still, and do, offer a service based on the love and passion for a book. My own small town library suffers badly from lack of funding, the building is in disrepair and the books have hardly changed since the 70's. What is there though, is a selection of books from across the spectrum, chosen by library staff who are still happy to place locally published books alongside a bestseller. A library is a true leveller, where money can stay outside the paint-flaked doors.
(Correction: those posts are on my blog in August 2005, a three-part story titled "The Forbidden Zone.") Re Mr. Kahan. I'll accept he's not a snob. I don't know him-- met him only that once. Re Richette: His best books are "The Secret Family," "The Fault Line," and "The Abyss." He's a competent novelist in the John O'Hara vein. No posing. (His mistake in "Family" is that the proper beginning is on page three or four, with the introduction of a leading personality. Larry writes background in the first couple pages-- a mistake keeping the reader from getting right into the narrative. It's a great yarn once the reader does get interested.) My personal opinion is that Xlibris is a rip-off, incidentally-- but I've read a few other good novels published by them, believe it or not. ("The Fault Line" is a fictional take on the MOVE matter, which Richette covered as a reporter. It's a shorter novel, maybe the most accessible; should be of interest to anyone living in Philadelphia.) Finally: Why Philadelphia? Why this town as home base for cultural revolution? For starters, once you move to NYC it seems a statement that you want to be accepted by the mainstream. We wanted more an enemy encampment outside the gates. Philly is more affordable, also more in keeping with our gritty personalities (I'm from Detroit after all), yet the center of print media empire-- the modern-day Rome-- remains in striking distance. Also, my mother was originally from this town-- I have memories of visiting as a child. Those memories came back to me in 1999 after a building fire I was in-- I had a dream telling me, "Go to Philadelphia." So here I am. Thanks for the stimulating discussion.
For some strange reason, Frank (in answer to your question a few comments above), the UK public seem to want Tony B to retire and to install a lugubrious chap called Gordon Brown instead. Don't ask me why. But recently, in an undignified media-incited hysteria, TB was forced to provide his timetable for departure. Cue immediate departure of all previously intense media hounding for new victims.
(Disclaimer: I am neutral on TB. I just hate the uncivilized way the media behaved, as it tends to do when covering politics -- I include the "political bloggers" in that category too, but heaven forbid, don't want to start another healthy debate in your comments, Frank, this one seems pretty heated enough as it is!)
Susan, I don't believe for a moment that all you need is talent. Why should writing be different than any other field of artistic endeavour? If you imagine that the cream of the musicians or artists rises to the top, then you need to speak with both musicians and music managers, of whom I know quite a few, both classical and pop; or of painters (a lesser number, but some reasonably successful ones in Germany) - not to mention that your cream may be my skim milk.
As any musician can tell you, talent is useless without hours and hours and hours of hard work. So, yes, perseverance is essential. But sufficient for success (depending of course on how you chose to measure it)?
And while I imagine that, yes, most of the self-published stuff is crap, so is a great deal of conventionally published fiction. Please check the bestseller lists for the last 50 years or so - or even some of the major prize lists.
Good comments, all. I think we are all expressing opinions based on our own experiences, which is as it should be.
Lee, I don't mean talent is *all* you need, but it's the main thing people who aren't getting published need --and that they don't have. In literature, that breaks down to a love of language, the ability to hear its poetry, and lots of other criteria it would take too long for me to describe. Workmanlike writers, who persevere without serious talent, produce the mediocre books on the bestseller list (Dan Brown, anyone?).
Over the years, I've also seen people who have the gift, the rare, true talent, but they cannot persevere long enough to achieve success -- because of mental illness, substance abuse, other reasons.
I do believe, however, that excellence is excellence in any artistic endeavor and that it's recognizable to people who know and care about that art form. Less discerning folk may not recognize the genius of the work, partic. if it's too far ahead of its time: Faulkner sent _Sound and the Fury_ to 29 publishers before it landed. And no surprise, when you read the opener. It took guts for the editor who accepted it to stake his all on that novel. Hindsight is 20/20.
Even though your cream would probably be my soy milk in some cases, I bet we would agree on certain masterworks in every art form, Lee.
King, Richette sounds good. I will look for his stuff. If you get the chance, go see "The Pillowman" at the Wilma. That playwright, Martin McDonagh, is brilliant. He originally wrote the title story when he was a teenager. And he, by the way, never went to college. He just kept persevering and he finally broke in.
It happens. Now I must return to Craceland (writing long essay on English novelist Jim Crace).
Sure. I have a Ph.D. from Columbia University in English ('92). I was an assistant professor at Beaver College (now Arcadia University) outside Phila. for most of the '90s and taught numerous writing workshops there. I founded and edited _Northeast Corridor_ there and we published a number of unknowns and knowns: Czeslaw Milosz (you may have heard of him), Eleanor Wilner, Dana Gioia, Ted Kooser, Stephen Dobyns, Linh Dinh, and many, many more. We published plays (one performed at the college to raise money for Phila.'s homeless), an opera libretto, fiction, memoirs, personal essays, and poems of every stripe (including one by Frank Wilson, who is far more than the book editor for The Inquirer). I must have read thousands of mss. of all kinds over the years and this is what I base my judgements on.
I have also taught many times at the Suncoast Writers Conference in Florida and the Phila. Writers' Conference. In fact, I'll be teaching at the latter in June 2006, a three-day workshop on memoir.
Who are all the great musicians you know, Lee, who can't get record deals? And what is your background? I see you've published some YA novels. Are they available in the U.S.?
Susan, I never claimed that I know 'great musicians ... who can't get record deals'; the ones I know are working professionals who speak openly about how those deals work.
Or is it because I don't hold a PhD from Columbia and teach writing that my comments were so unclear?
Any further discussion, I feel, should be conducted by email.
Instead of commenting about libraries in general-- we can all agree about how important they are (my education came not from schools but from libraries), I want to throw in a remark about libraries here in Philly.
ReplyDeleteIt's distressing to see scarce funds go toward expanding the temple of gentrification on the parkway-- massive amounts of money budgeted for that-- while the branch libraries, so much closer to the public, are the first to be closed, hours and services cut, etc., at crunch time.
Who uses the libraries (even the main branch)? Is it not folks from the lower segments of society?
Oh, we see hordes of well-dressed gentry come in for author readings (bland establishment writers who know only how to be boring) at the main branch-- but it's the only time you'll see these folks there. The contrast between the library's actual patrons, and such well-heeled audiences, is striking.
I hit many of the branches, to use the internet (as now) and have a good sense of how important they are to community locals. Those kids flipping through magazines and books are literature's future. If even one of them is stimulated, introduced to the excitement and wonder of books, the branch's existence is worth it.
Just my two cents. Thanks.
Well, King, as someone who has very fond memories of days spent in the Holmesburg Branch of the Free Library, I am sympathetic to much that you say - though as one who has participated in the author events at the Main Branch, I have to say that those I have attended have been very worthwhile. I think one can have both the author events and effective branches. I think you have to have both, in fact.
ReplyDeleteFolks, perhaps you weren't aware that all of the branches were refurbished during the Big Change campaign and that the Central Library was saved for last. Perhaps you're also unaware that the library has a nationally recognized Teen Author Series (now in its fourth year) that brings thousands of Philadelphia teens together with world class authors throughout the branch system--authors like Alice Walker, Tim O'Brien, Nikki Giovanni et al. As to King's benighted comments about the "hordes of well-dressed gentry" attending the author readings by "bland establishment writers who know only how to be boring," I can only think that he missed the boat on some terrific events with the likes of Cindy Sheehan, Amy Goodman, Steve Wozniak, Katha Pollitt, Michael Eric Dyson, Amy Sedaris, David Rees, Monte Irvin, Dave Lindorff, Alison Bechdel, Barack Obama and the list goes on. We have folks of every color, class, creed and gender attending our events. Next time you may want to do your homework before you add your two cents.
ReplyDeleteBut I have seen the events there. Most-- the Thursday evening ones esp, are 95% white and 99% gentry.
ReplyDeleteThey reek of NPR-- which stimulates some people, I guess. I guess none of you have seen a real underground event. :)
My main point anyway has to do with the huge expansion planned. What's that cost??
(Many of the branches btw are fairly decrepit. only recently was some semblance of decent hours, such as Saturdays, restored. Again, building of the Temple will go on and you can be sure at next budget crunch branch hours will be cutback to a miniscule of hours. Like at the South Philly branch on 7th, for which the last cutback was crippling.)
Yes, we need both. Will we get it?
Has the massive expansion been fully justified, given the enoprmous expense??
If you want a good example of this kind of strategy, visit Detroit, my home town, where everything-- EVERYTHING-- bus service, schools, streetlights-- was sacrificed to build two huge sports arenas which were supposed to resurrect the city but instead have become only playthings for one class of people; one on display this week in fact with the World Series.
Thanks.
nwp.s. This isn't really the time and place for this-- but I can't resist: Mr. Kahan, aren't you the individual who threatened to ban me from the central library for daring to ask a few questions of a noted author at one of your events a few years ago? (Said questions added some life to what was a rather staid affair, by my lights.)
ReplyDeleteI ask that people who dominate literature in this country adopt the perspective of those who view things from the outside.
Why is literature dominated by big conglomerates in New York? Why do the most hyped authors come from elite schools? Is this at all democratic?
Hasn't the history of literature shown that writing is one venue immune from schooling? That the very best writers were in fact self-educated? (From Tolstoy to Stephen Crane to Hemingway to Jack Kerouac to Jack London.)
Why do even the voices on the so-called "Left" come from the upper strata of this country? (The oft-seen Katrina vanden Heuvel of the Nation to name one; a billionairess with a huge investment portfolio.)
When does the bulk of the populace get to speak for themselves?
Ever?
There recently was a "215" event at your venue-- hyping mediocre monopoly-backed authors based in NYC like John Hodgman. There are some very good Philly writers and poets around who could use the attention.
Care to book one of them-- such as long-time Philly poet Frank Walsh?
I'll be posting about Walsh on my blog-- examining his work and arguing with specific examples that there's no better poet alive in America now.
Walsh is a great spoken word performer to boot. Not just adequate. Not just good. Among the best around. I say that as someone who's not a bad public performer himself, who's attended and participated in hundreds of open mics through the years.
Walsh is one guy who can bring life back into the lit scene-- as he puts life back into poetry.
Alas, he has few credentials or credits-- just a handyman fixing buildings in west Philly, scribbling his art in spare moments. Unbacked by any huge publicity departments-- only by the literary renegades in the Underground Literary Alliance.
(If you want an example of an excellent non-ULA Philly writer who gets no attention, I'll give you the name Lawrence Richette. He has nothing whatsoever in common with ULAers-- but does happen to be a very good writer. Read his novel "The Secret Family" sometime; or another excellent novel he wrote about the MOVE fiasco; one of the most relevant things written in this town in recent years. I'll invite you to read and book him. His crime is publishing through Xlibris. Surely you exist as more than an outlet for the big book companies?)
Thanks for letting me rant. . . .
Actually, King's point is really exactly Tim Coates' point (author and campaigner of the Good Libraries Blog post linked to by Frank).
ReplyDeleteIn the UK, less and less money is being spent on books. More and more is being spent, for example, on bespoke library buildings (instead of saving it by using same plans, as schools do). In London, for example, each borough has its own system and you can't borrow from one library in a different borough without a load of new bureacracy. This is all part of Tim's campaign, to use the internet to make economies of scale in the UK library system so we can stop closing down libraries and buy books to stock them with, instead of the numerous grand and silly intiatives that he reports on his blog.
Tim Coates knows what he is talking about, he used to be MD of Waterstones, and should be Prime Minister of Britain after Tony B chooses to retire.
But Tony is never going to choose to retire, is he?
ReplyDeletewenclas,
ReplyDeleteTo address some of your points:
yes, i'm the guy who said he was going to throw you out and that was becuase you heckled one of our authors. If you can't have a civil exchange with the authors we don't want you wasting their time or the time of the audience who have little interest in your comments....
Now, I'm also diistressed about the consolidation of publishing power in the hands of a limited number of corporations, but those corporations also have houses with editors whose discriminating tastes I trust far more than the vanity presses who print anything that comes over the transom. Ann Godoff at Penguin Press, Gary Fisketjon at Knopf and Erol McDonald at Pantheon, just to name a few, know fine writing when they see it. When Xlibris et al produce writers of the caliber that the aforementioned houses publish--and people want to see, hear, meet and read those authors--we'll probably host them.
With regard to Frank Walsh, if you think he deserves a reading, have him send one of his books to the the attention of the Literature Department of the Free Library of Philadelphia, 1901 Vine St. Philadelphia, PA 19103. They run our local poetry series entitled Monday Poets. Frank may fit right in. If they don't go for a Frank Walsh night, try one of the many open mic nights in town, or Robbins or Kelly Writers House or Mollys--we're not the only game in town.
As to Hodgman, he's been coming to the library for the past 5 years for the 215 Festival, long before Pearson LLC decided to publish his book. The same is true for David Rees who had published his Get Your War On cartoons on his web site. (Much like the site you have on eblogger, which is hosted by that little democratically run anti-establishment startup we know and love as Google, a.k.a THE MAN or gentry as it were.)
And speaking of the man, bring your clicker on Thursday night to the William Julius Wilson event so you can check your demographics (95% white, 99% gentry) and count the number of non-white folks and non-gentry in attendance, but bring $12.00 because it is a ticketed event, unless you're a student, then you pay $6.00. (NB: Without the 30 ticketed events we do each year we wouldn't be able to bring you the other 100 bland establishment writers for free.)
And while you're there you may want to thank those gentry that do show up because they (and a good number of foundations) will be paying for the lions share of the new library, where you'll be able to use the internet for free.
For additonal info about the library system, who we serve and the projected costs of the new building, call our communications department at 215-567-7710 and they'll be happy to send you an annual report.
And by the way, if you can't tell, I think it's absurd to compare an institution of free education for all to a sports complex that charges outrageous sums for entertainment.
I used the Detroit sports complexes as an example of a tops-down approach to saving a city. It doesn't work.
ReplyDeleteNice that the gentry are paying for the extension (you haven't told us the cost) but will branch hours be extended at the same time?
Maybe something can be done about the Chinatown branch on 7th near Market, which I frequented for a while earlier in the year. Many days it was closed because of no heat in the building-- then was shut down for over a month this summer. Meaning many local community people weren't served.
Yes, I use the computers at the libraries (am on one now). I'm also a taxpayer.
Re heckling. As you know, I didn't heckle the person-- merely started a debate with him during the designated question period; asking him about his abuse of this country's grants process, and how it relates to literature. That's all. You were there-- you know this.
Your threat came outside, in the lobby, as I and a couple I attended the event with were leaving the library! (They were astounded by your behavior and your words: "I know you; I know all about you.")
Re Richette. You can't really judge his work unless you read it, Xlibris or not. I'll have him send a copy of one of his novels to you c/o the central library-- and I will follow-up on it. (He's a far, far better writer than Mr. Hodgman, who represents everything wrong with literature now. Oh yes, he's very trendy and a member of the in-crowd, as represented by the yearly invasion of trendoids from NYC known as the 215 festival.)
Re the book monsters. Yes, I'm sure they have a few good people working for them-- by your standards. (But then, is Ann Godoff speaking out about the takeover of CLMP by big money-- or cooperating with this?)
GM and Ford always had some good people working for them, including during their period of total dominance-- but at the same time represented virtual monopoly of the market, shutting out new ideas. Their stagnancy then is more visible now.
The American literary world today is stagnant, and can't see it.
Re Mr. William Wilson. (Wasn't that a Poe story?) Sorry, I work most evenings. I'd guess he's another bourgeois author-- whatever his color-- and that his audience will be mostly bourgeois, whatever their color.
Re Mr. Walsh. Golly, I've never heard of Robin's! What a nice quaint little venue! Thanks much!
Actually, Walsh has read at Robin's, at Molly's (which fits all of eight people) and was featured a couple years ago at one of the Monday Poets series. Too bad you weren't in attendance-- he and those of us who read at the open mic period brought much needed energy to the event.
(Walsh won a poetry slam at the Kelly Writers House in January of 2004, which included many of Penn's best poetry students. The event was sponsored by one of their lit journals, which promised publication to the winner. They never followed through on it. Walsh's "Reagan's Brain" is a barn burner-- not very genteel; not the kind of thing found in a standard lit journal-- or at the prestige events at the Central Library.)
To Mssrs. Kahan and King -- This is what debate is supposed to be about! You go, guys -- but stay civil, too.
ReplyDeleteBoth of you make good points, btw. But, King, I would have been upset, too, if I'd been in the audience when you were hassling a speaker about the grants he's received. That doesn't have anything to do with what the guy has read, does it? And if he's received grants you don't think he should have, it's partly a name game -- once you've gotten one, you're a known quantity, you're likely to get others. On the other hand, before you've gotten any, the absolute best thing you can be is A MINORITY. So, you see, stuff evens out.
Mr. Kahan, I admire you for doing your job as well as you can. King Wenclas, I admire you for pointing out that America is more class-based than we know and that there's a world beneath the gentrified one whose creative gifts those above barely know. (Well, actually, we know in one form: Rap music. The written words we know less well....)
The violent and sexist "rap" music put out by conglomerates like Sony is a cynical distortion of original hip-hop.
ReplyDeleteBtw, I'm not a "minority"-- so where does that leave me?
Why do I ask questions at literary events?
It's one way to have a voice in this society.
It's why I came to Philadelphia from Detroit-- to be able to confront the heart of the beast.
The problem with literature today is its tops-down approach.
Believe it or not, newspaper reviewers in cities like Detroit review not local authors-- but writers approved by the "mainstream" based in New York.
This problem will become greater-- as the other Wilson, Frank, surely knows, with newspapers around the country laying off their own book reviewers and reprinting reviews from the few reviewers left.
Philadelphia is actually lucky in this regard. (I know the Baltimore paper had a good book reviewer who was laid off a couple years ago. Who now does one send books to? Is everything being centralized?)
Snobby Mr. Kahan-- note his condescension toward "vanity" authors-- is merely one cog in a huge problem.
More noise about literature; more books; more pages; more magazine articles and ad space; comes out of NYC than the entire rest of the nation combined. Who staffs the book publishers and the magazines which decide which authors are promoted? The individuals overwhelmingly are Ivy League grads, representative of less than 1% of the American public while imposing their tastes and standards on what is considered literature.
This is how we get a smirky and smarmy John Hodgman.
The well-bred and well-trained staffers see literature from their perspective, from no other.
Unless one knows how to access those at the top of the pyramid, one has few chances of being meaningfully published.
How do unconnected writers combat this?
Do we stay in our tiny ghettoes-- hoping for a reading at, gulp!, Molly's?
Or do we find alternate ways to get the word out about ourselves and our products?
The Underground Literary Alliance is an advocacy group for underground writers. We've made noise and we'll make more of it.
We're also slowly putting into place the foundation for a true alternative literature different from the conglomerates.
(Note the new book review feature on the ULA's www.literaryrevolution.com site. Anyone care to write some book reviews for us?)
p.s. I wish I could make the Gaitskill reading at your venue tonight, Mr. Kahan. Sorry I can't. Ms. G was a subscriber to a newsletter of mine in the 1990's. She actually solicited a review from me in 2000 when she was guest fiction editor at Bookforum. I reviewed J.T. Leroy's first novel. I expressed reservations about the book's stance (I didn't expect "he" was a fraud), as I'd worked in truck compounds and was familiar with "lot lizards." Leroy's narrative rang false-- I assumed he was simply writing what he thought the trendy gentry wanted.
The slant of my review was changed-- one example of many over the years which told me that mainstream writers are by and large lot lizards themselves.
In the ULA, the writers are in control-- not bureaucrats sitting in offices.
Mr. Kahan, care to stage a debate sometime between the ULA and any or all mainstream lit folk?
Ii'd be exciting and enlightening.
p.p.s. About grants. Look at the recent "House of Lies" post on my blog. Should the wealthiest people in America-- like the author I questioned-- be receiving tax-sheltered or taxpayer grant money?
ReplyDeleteThe problem runs deeper than you know.
Um, if you're going to confront "the heart of the beast," shouldn't you do it in the actual jungle: NYC? Phila. hasn't been the center of the publishing industry for over 100 years (though it was, once).
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry to have to tell you this, but self-published books are, for the most part, crap. I've seen quite a few of them as a writing instructor, a book reviewer, and an editor of a literary magazine. There are a few good ones, worthy of review, but not many -- it's why most book reviews don't even consider them (Frank W., to his credit, will give them a look).
If your writing is fresh and lively, it doesn't matter where you come from or whether you hold any degrees at all -- editors and publishers are *dying* to see your work. I know. I edited a literary magazine for years and I definitely didn't see enough of it.
As for rap and Sony, you begin to show your prejudices, King. Are you the kind of writer who doesn't want to be a member of any club who would have him? Are people who get big publishing contracts and CD deals the sell-outs? Are only the "little," unknown artists "real"?
J'espere que non.
I shall make only one comment: I know Andy Kahan, and he is not a snob.
ReplyDeleteKing's point about access is valid, though. Simply put, it is easier to get your stuff published if you're an insider, than if you're not. People lining up to see quality unknown authors? Not hardly. The free market argument doesn't really hold up, because it's very hard to connect those editors who are "dying to see your fresh, lively work, no matter where you come from," with the writers. I can name 6 or 7 writers (Jessica Schneider is one of them) who have been unable to find one of those sympathetic editors looking for quality work. I'm sure that they exist; but it's naive to think that the connection process is going to happen easily or automatically, even if all parties work hard at it.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is perhaps the top-down way a lot of this is done. Submit the book to a committee, submit the poem to a magzine, submit the magazine to a publisher. The problem here is that those who already have the tools control the tools. (Well, not so much anymore: the internet and desktop publishing are already revolutionizing access to distribution.) So, I can submit something to a library reading committee till the cows come home, but if my work doesn't meet the tastes of those on the committee, it's never going to get anywhere; now is it? Be realistic: a lot of decisions about access are made on the taste of those who control the access. One of my best friends is a professional librarian: she would belly-laugh at the idea that libraries are apolitical.
I love libraries, I grew up reading in them, and I still enjoy visiting them, even though I have amassed my own home library. One of the things I love doing is research, and I'm good at it. And libraries are great fun to get lost in.
Still, I recall what Karl Shapiro wrote in 1960:
"What modern criticism does not take into account, respecting the audience, is that there is not one audience but innumerable audiences. It seems painfully obvious to point out—but there is a difference between the Punch and Judy audience and the opera audience. All appreciation, however, rises from the bottom and does not descend from the top. The sickness of modern poetry is the sickness of isolation from any living audience. There is no healthy literature that does not grow out of naive, folk, and 'primitive' art. It is notable that every art in the twentieth century except poetry has drawn richly from jazz, the movies, advertising, the comic strip, commercial design, and even radio and TV. Poetry is somehow deprived of its contact with contemporary art on the popular and even commercial levels. . . ."
So, how does relate to libraries? Perhaps mostly in the way we choose to let libraries be used, and who we let in to use them. If any public institution should NOT be a top-down institution, it seems to me that is the library.
But, Art, as for publication: Everyone starts somewhere. Every published writer I know, including myself, began as a complete unknown and amassed reams of rejections before finally landing something, somewhere.
ReplyDeleteAs an editor, I published several Phila. writers who were unknown until then -- and then they got Pew Fellowships, Leeway Grants, and PA Council of the Arts awards. Good writing rises to the top and, believe me, it stands out. The majority of the mss. editors receive (excepting the major mags whose eds. only really look at agented fiction)is mediocre at best.
I think people whose writing isn't quite good enough are the ones most likely to decry the "top down" aspect of publishing. They're certain their stuff would get published if only they had connections in that world. But, you know what? All you need is the talent -- talent is truly rare and that's all there is to it. Silver lining: perseverance and relentless practice can make up for the lack, but it takes time.
I love libraries and I would expect the main branch of the Free Library to do things the neighborhood branches don't do: Like bring in major writers.
Well, Susan, I suggest you read my recent two-part essay about CLMP in the "Monday Report" archives at the www.literaryrevolution.com site and see who the publishing world wants: conformists with money.
ReplyDeleteMy opinion: what you call writing that's "good enough" is writing which sounds like everything else.
I have a post upcoming on my blog examining the requests and standards of literary agents-- their own words-- stating what they want. I intend to document that their main criterion is obedience-- writing to conformist standards. Manuscripts with misspellings are immediately thrown out.
Makes sense, doesn't it?
But how many geniuses are thrown out with the rest?
(Scott Fitzgerald and William Shakespeare were both notorious misspellers.)
Those who follow all the rules, who jump through all the hoops, might be the most ambitious but might also at the same time be the most conformist.
You're getting a lot of "A" students but not the kid sleeping at the back of the class because he was on the streets all night because his parents were mean drunks; the kid not John Hodgman eagerly raising his hand in the first row, but one who has a compelling story to tell.
My own experience when I started writing was that the manuscripts I sent out wren't even read. I did the trick of including a slip of paper between the pages saying, "destroy this note if you get this far." I moved the slip closer and closer to the front. Always it was present.
I suspect most lit journals and maybe most publishing houses go no further than the name on the return address.
I published several essays in lit journals in the 1990s-- including two long ones in a prestigious journal (the first of the two the best thing I've ever written, even though a third of it was cut-out; I'd even claim it's one of the strongest essays published anywhere in this country in the last twenty years). Everything I wrote was solicited, based on my notoriety through my newsletter.
Unsolicited manuscripts are for suckers. Most published writers know this.
For the second of the two essays-- about minor league baseball-- I kept phoning the editor about my expenses. he was never in his office. When finally I reached him, I asked when he found time to read his stacks of submissions. He laughed about my question.
Re vanity presses. No doubt most of the books published are junk-- as most of the books published by the mainstream, the literary stuff anyway, is well-crafted junk. They have craft-- little else.
Lawrence Richette doesn't fit this category. I suggest you read one of his books before judging.
Re rap and Sony.
My personal opinion is that gangsta rap is helping to destroy the black community. I did some substitute teaching in this town a year ago or so. I could see the younger children learning the attitudes and poses; the language and stance, not fully developed as in the older students.
(I wrote about this on my blog-- June or July '05, I think, in my semi-fictional "Zytron" posts. Check them out.)
But this is where it goes horribly wrong, isn't it? Bring in the top writers, and the lower (?) writers sink down to the tip of the snake's tail. When are people going to realise that our publishing industry is being run by celeb autobiographies etc, the money spinners who are pushing out those excellent writers and forcing them to look at (God forbid Susan!) vanity publishing, POD or the smaller more intimate publishers who can still, and do, offer a service based on the love and passion for a book.
ReplyDeleteMy own small town library suffers badly from lack of funding, the building is in disrepair and the books have hardly changed since the 70's. What is there though, is a selection of books from across the spectrum, chosen by library staff who are still happy to place locally published books alongside a bestseller. A library is a true leveller, where money can stay outside the paint-flaked doors.
(Correction: those posts are on my blog in August 2005, a three-part story titled "The Forbidden Zone.")
ReplyDeleteRe Mr. Kahan. I'll accept he's not a snob. I don't know him-- met him only that once.
Re Richette: His best books are "The Secret Family," "The Fault Line," and "The Abyss."
He's a competent novelist in the John O'Hara vein. No posing.
(His mistake in "Family" is that the proper beginning is on page three or four, with the introduction of a leading personality. Larry writes background in the first couple pages-- a mistake keeping the reader from getting right into the narrative. It's a great yarn once the reader does get interested.)
My personal opinion is that Xlibris is a rip-off, incidentally-- but I've read a few other good novels published by them, believe it or not.
("The Fault Line" is a fictional take on the MOVE matter, which Richette covered as a reporter. It's a shorter novel, maybe the most accessible; should be of interest to anyone living in Philadelphia.)
Finally: Why Philadelphia?
Why this town as home base for cultural revolution?
For starters, once you move to NYC it seems a statement that you want to be accepted by the mainstream.
We wanted more an enemy encampment outside the gates.
Philly is more affordable, also more in keeping with our gritty personalities (I'm from Detroit after all), yet the center of print media empire-- the modern-day Rome-- remains in striking distance.
Also, my mother was originally from this town-- I have memories of visiting as a child. Those memories came back to me in 1999 after a building fire I was in-- I had a dream telling me, "Go to Philadelphia." So here I am.
Thanks for the stimulating discussion.
For some strange reason, Frank (in answer to your question a few comments above), the UK public seem to want Tony B to retire and to install a lugubrious chap called Gordon Brown instead. Don't ask me why. But recently, in an undignified media-incited hysteria, TB was forced to provide his timetable for departure. Cue immediate departure of all previously intense media hounding for new victims.
ReplyDelete(Disclaimer: I am neutral on TB. I just hate the uncivilized way the media behaved, as it tends to do when covering politics -- I include the "political bloggers" in that category too, but heaven forbid, don't want to start another healthy debate in your comments, Frank, this one seems pretty heated enough as it is!)
PS Susan, voice of reason and wisdom.
Susan, I don't believe for a moment that all you need is talent. Why should writing be different than any other field of artistic endeavour? If you imagine that the cream of the musicians or artists rises to the top, then you need to speak with both musicians and music managers, of whom I know quite a few, both classical and pop; or of painters (a lesser number, but some reasonably successful ones in Germany) - not to mention that your cream may be my skim milk.
ReplyDeleteAs any musician can tell you, talent is useless without hours and hours and hours of hard work. So, yes, perseverance is essential. But sufficient for success (depending of course on how you chose to measure it)?
And while I imagine that, yes, most of the self-published stuff is crap, so is a great deal of conventionally published fiction. Please check the bestseller lists for the last 50 years or so - or even some of the major prize lists.
Good comments, all. I think we are all expressing opinions based on our own experiences, which is as it should be.
ReplyDeleteLee, I don't mean talent is *all* you need, but it's the main thing people who aren't getting published need --and that they don't have. In literature, that breaks down to a love of language, the ability to hear its poetry, and lots of other criteria it would take too long for me to describe. Workmanlike writers, who persevere without serious talent, produce the mediocre books on the bestseller list (Dan Brown, anyone?).
Over the years, I've also seen people who have the gift, the rare, true talent, but they cannot persevere long enough to achieve success -- because of mental illness, substance abuse, other reasons.
I do believe, however, that excellence is excellence in any artistic endeavor and that it's recognizable to people who know and care about that art form. Less discerning folk may not recognize the genius of the work, partic. if it's too far ahead of its time: Faulkner sent _Sound and the Fury_ to 29 publishers before it landed. And no surprise, when you read the opener. It took guts for the editor who accepted it to stake his all on that novel. Hindsight is 20/20.
Even though your cream would probably be my soy milk in some cases, I bet we would agree on certain masterworks in every art form, Lee.
King, Richette sounds good. I will look for his stuff. If you get the chance, go see "The Pillowman" at the Wilma. That playwright, Martin McDonagh, is brilliant. He originally wrote the title story when he was a teenager. And he, by the way, never went to college. He just kept persevering and he finally broke in.
It happens. Now I must return to Craceland (writing long essay on English novelist Jim Crace).
Au relire.
Susan, perhaps you might tell us just where you've taught, and which literary journal you edited.
ReplyDeleteSure. I have a Ph.D. from Columbia University in English ('92). I was an assistant professor at Beaver College (now Arcadia University) outside Phila. for most of the '90s and taught numerous writing workshops there. I founded and edited _Northeast Corridor_ there and we published a number of unknowns and knowns: Czeslaw Milosz (you may have heard of him), Eleanor Wilner, Dana Gioia, Ted Kooser, Stephen Dobyns, Linh Dinh, and many, many more. We published plays (one performed at the college to raise money for Phila.'s homeless), an opera libretto, fiction, memoirs, personal essays, and poems of every stripe (including one by Frank Wilson, who is far more than the book editor for The Inquirer). I must have read thousands of mss. of all kinds over the years and this is what I base my judgements on.
ReplyDeleteI have also taught many times at the Suncoast Writers Conference in Florida and the Phila. Writers' Conference. In fact, I'll be teaching at the latter in June 2006, a three-day workshop on memoir.
Who are all the great musicians you know, Lee, who can't get record deals? And what is your background? I see you've published some YA novels. Are they available in the U.S.?
Susan, I never claimed that I know 'great musicians ... who can't get record deals'; the ones I know are working professionals who speak openly about how those deals work.
ReplyDeleteOr is it because I don't hold a PhD from Columbia and teach writing that my comments were so unclear?
Any further discussion, I feel, should be conducted by email.